Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spaceflight

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Sources for the obvious thesis

Hello, I read a long time ago for an article Spacecraft electric propulsion that such engines are not suitable for takeoffs from planets due to low thrust. In general, this is a fairly obvious thesis, but I cannot find authoritative sources for it. However, for Wikipedia, all theses must be substantiated with sources, in connection with which the question is - are there sources for this thesis? Thank you in advance. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 14:13, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

Comment: Yes, it might help some readers to clarify that electric propulsion (as it is described here, e.g. using ion thrusters) isn't used for the boost phase of a launch from Earth. Even though there are proposals to use other forms of electric propulsion (like electromagnetic rail guns) to launch from the surface of other planetary bodies like the Moon, that is not the focus of the article. Lacking sources for the assertion you propose adding, the best approach might be to keep the article focus on the topic of spacecraft propulsion, perhaps with a brief comment contrasting electric propulsion with the chemical propulsion used for launch vehicles. Please don't hesitate to continue developing this through discussion at Talk:Spacecraft electric propulsion. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 17:12, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

Ok. Thank you! --Vyacheslav84 (talk) 16:32, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

Proposal

I think that it would be a good idea to create a unique visual in the event of an astronaut group, the Mercury Seven for example, having all articles reach the class of Featured Article. Something along the lines of: “Astronauts adopted”, along with a kind of banner adorned with that group’s amount of Featured Article stars. QuicksmartTortoise513 (talk) 04:44, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

Flags in mission crew boxes

It's longstanding practice to use flags in crew infoboxes as a snappy way of informing readers which countries astronauts represent, which is useful particularly on multinational efforts like Space Station flights. However, it has been argued the use of the flag only (without the country's name) goes against MOS:FLAG, and there have been recent edits removing them entirely due to this.

My two cents: using flags is permissible in this case, since MOS:FLAG says Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country or nationality – such as military units or national sports teams., and astronauts do represent their countries by nearly universally wearing actual flag patches. The actual flag worn also clearly takes precedence over any other nationalities the astronaut may hold, so any debates about which one(s) are correct are easily solved.

I have mixed feelings about the Accompany flags with country names part of the MOS. While I can see the accessibility benefits, it seems verbose and unnecessary, and the astronaut suits themselves rarely if ever spell out the country names. Asamboi (talk) 00:33, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

Flags without names are not acceptable due to the fact that A) the flags are often too small to tell the difference between United States, Malaysia and Liberia for instance and B) Not having the country name makes them inaccessible. Additionally country flags are being used as pure decoration all over the place in fields that are not about the country. For instance in the Payload name, this isn't appropriate for a flag as the flag is not part of the payload name. For the astronaut's name, the flag is not part of the astronaut's name. Now if there are actual fields in the tables and templates for countries, and the flag with the country name then that's fine. But throwing a flag into a field that's blatantly not what the field is for and is not relevant to the field is just purely using flags for the sake of decoration. Additionally flags are being used where they're not appropriate as the person in question, or payload etc, isn't representing the country. They should only be used for country representation. A space tourist, or a satellite going up for a telecoms company, isn't representing a country. Additionally note, Wikiprojects cannot override the MOS, and wikiprojects have no ownership over pages or authority to impose decisions. Canterbury Tail talk 02:06, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

First, this discussion is specifically about Template:Spaceflight crew boxes in the body of mission articles. Flags in infoboxes or satellites or whatever is not relevant (and for what it's worth, I actually agree with you that both are bad).

Second, the field shown to the reader is "Crew", not "Name", and the current standard for that field is to list the astronaut's country (represented by the flag), their name, and how many missions they have flown, which you'll note is also not their name. These are three different things for which there is general consensus, so your argument that it should only contain the name is flatly wrong.

Last but definitely not least, you are proposing a change to hundreds of articles that have used a standard format for years, and your interpretation of MOS:FLAG is by no means the only possible one. In particular, you will note that the section "Accompany flags with country names" says should, not "must", and WP:IAR is always valid when overly literal adherence to MOS damages the encyclopedia: your deletions are stripping away not just the flags, but the important biographical footnotes attached to them.

I'm more than happy to work with you to find you to find a consensus that satisfies MOS:FLAG, like adding the country label next to the flag. But in the meantime you need to stop making unilateral edits, because I can assure you that removing country information entirely is not going to fly. Asamboi (talk) 02:37, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

FWIW, here is what it looks like if you just swap the flagicon template with flag. I think we'll all agree the result is an unreadable mess, meaning we'll need to adjust the underlying template as well, but adding in an extra country parameter shouldn't be too hard. Asamboi (talk) 02:44, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

I find it curious that you’re using the Fram2 mission, as it’s the exception that largely proves the point.

Take the commander, he wore the flag of Malta on his spacesuit during the flight, but he was born in China, lives primarily in Norway and is a citizen of Malta (and Saint Kitts and Nevis) through their golden visa programs. That’s four nations he has “ties” to.

Plus he’s a space tourist… he officially represented none of those nations. RickyCourtney (talk) 03:06, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

We don't have flags for "ties". He wore the flag of Malta, the article should display the flag of Malta and list other citizenships in a footnote, as it did. (IMHO the SVG flag should not be displayed, but that's orthogonal to this debate.)

But yeah, Fram2 and private spaceflight not sponsored by national space agencies in general is more complicated, but rare. More typical cases are articles like SpaceX Crew-11 or Axiom Mission 4, where each crew member is directly sponsored by a national agency (or Axiom), and you'll note the Crew field mentions those agencies as well. Asamboi (talk) 04:30, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

But we do have flags for ties. In your example you had a flag for Wang's ties to Saint Kitts and Nevis. Mikkelsen wore the flag of Norway but you included the U.K. flag for her ties to that nation. There are plenty of examples on NASA astronauts too… Michael López-Alegría who grew up in the United States, worked for NASA, wore the stars and stripes on his arm during his missions, but these infoboxes include the Spanish flag too… I guess because he was born in Spain.

Then we have the European astronauts like Andreas Mogensen who is Danish, but he’s representing the ESA (all of Europe), so does he need two flags?

Even the Axiom missions are complicated. The first two missions carried tourists instead of project astronauts.

What about single nation crews like the Apollo missions. Why would we even need flags in the table? It’s an American mission, everyone knows they’re Americans.

Point is, the current situation is untenable. RickyCourtney (talk) 05:30, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

Please don't attempt to confuse the issue. You justified your deletions with MOS:FLAG, not this suddenly purported concern about what countries the astronauts represent. Wikipedia has extensive policies for this (see MOS:NATIONALITY) and this supposedly "untenable" situation has, in fact, been entirely tenable to date.

I have no strong opinions either way about single-nation crews, although IMHO for consistency any program that has flown crew from multiple countries is better off listing them every time. (Which covers basically everything after Apollo or thereabouts.)

If you think we should remove all countries from all crew listings, you're welcome to propose that separately, but that's an entirely different kettle of fish and I assure you you'll get even more pushback for that. Asamboi (talk) 06:26, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

@Canterbury Tail Care to weigh in here? I'm unsure of how to move forward. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 18:36, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

Flags are distracting, prone to nationalistic edits, often subjects of edit wars over which one should be used etc. We should just get rid of them all. As for country, we should keep country when the person in question is officially representing the country. Otherwise we shouldn't have country. And the country should be a separate field, so we're not overloading one field with confusing data. Canterbury Tail talk 18:48, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

I would argue we don’t need the country as we instead share the national agency they represent (NASA, JAXA, Roscosmos, ESA, etc.) RickyCourtney (talk) 20:29, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

Re: "We should just get rid of them all", that's very much your personal opinion, not Wikipedia policy, and you'll need to create a separate proposal for that because this is not it. Asamboi (talk) 05:55, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

This isn't an RFC, editors are entitled to discuss anything relevant in this discussion. The MOS:FLAGS issue is connected to the country issue, so it's valid for editors to bring it up if they desire. There's no policy that says they can't bring it up. Canterbury Tail talk 15:42, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

If someone wears a garment issued to them by an organization, and that garment includes an insignia that represents that organization, then it makes sense for us to use that insignia when we discuss what that person does while wearing that garment. The same applies if the garment is a military uniform or a spacesuit. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 23:47, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

Astronauts

In an attempt to get adopt-an-astronaut restarted, we have have Gordon Cooper at nominated at FAC here. We need some help guys! Could some of you drop in with a review. Just a few words is all that it would take. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:04, 21 October 2025 (UTC)