User talk:RetroCosmos
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St. Peter's Basilica
[edit]Morning RetroCosmos, and oof, sorry for contacting you after the close, I totally missed this... but I don't like this move at all. First of all, the opening premise for the move rationale, saying "The abbreviation "St." in the current title is considered to be American and Canadian English" is as far as I know completely false. As someone in the UK, it's far more often "St." than "Saint"... see [1] for just one example. Secondly, some suppporters cited WP:COMMONNAME, but again the evidence I can see - particularly for ngrams - suggests strongly that sources usually render it with the abbreviated "St." rather than spelled out. It's slightly more WP:CONCISE too, as a minor addendum.
I can see there was a lot of support, but given that the reasons given for the move were almost entirely incorrect, would you mind relisting it for another week so that this can be discussed further? Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 08:28, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- Amakuru, the official website] provides the full word if that adds weight to the move. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:17, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- That revelation was made after closure, so I'll reopen discussion with a note to discuss based on what you've brought up here. Good day—RetroCosmos talk 22:04, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- Ping me if you want me to move it back. Remsense ‥ 论 22:16, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- I've reopened discussion, but not moved the page. If you could do so that would be great. Please let me know if I've broken anything. Good day—RetroCosmos talk 22:18, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- @Amakuru, I would disagree that the support was based on an incorrect reason. While historically "St." was dominant in British English, the abbreviation "St" these days is generally preferred, as can be seen in the Ngrams (substitute in the name of any saint you like; they all seem to show the same trend). This usage is reflected in the style guides of major English-speaking governments outside North America, such as the Australian, British, European, New Zealand, and South African government style guides, which all say either to not use full stops with abbreviations at all, or to only use them in specific circumstances, none of which include when abbreviating the word "saint". In regards to the London Underground example that you raised, TfL's current style guide says to use the form "St", which they do on the tube map. It appears from the page you linked to that this policy has not yet been fully implemented across all TfL usage, but nonetheless I don't think that example should be extrapolated to indicate that the usage "St." is dominant outside of North America. There is an evident usage difference here between the two major English varieties, and therefore I would argue that the WP:COMMONALITY argument in support of the move is valid and should not be discounted. Tomiĉo (talk) 11:22, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
- @Tomiĉo: I guess this isn't a battle I'm going to win then, but it just seems a bit silly to me, that given a slight preference for "St." in the US and a slight preference for "St" in the UK, we decide in the interests of "commonality" to go for the form "Saint", which is the least common way of rendering it in all the locales. In particular, if we filter our ngram for British English usage only - [2] - we see that while "St" has the lead, "St." is still considerably more used than "Saint". This isn't one of those cases where it's jarring for a British reader, I would personally fully expect to see "St." rather than "Saint". Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 14:06, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
- It's not a "slight preference" for "St" in British English, but an overwhelming one. That's why the proposal was overwhelmingly supported on the grounds of commonality. I just cannot see the argument that there was consensus not to move. The consensus was very, very clear. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:48, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Tomiĉo: I guess this isn't a battle I'm going to win then, but it just seems a bit silly to me, that given a slight preference for "St." in the US and a slight preference for "St" in the UK, we decide in the interests of "commonality" to go for the form "Saint", which is the least common way of rendering it in all the locales. In particular, if we filter our ngram for British English usage only - [2] - we see that while "St" has the lead, "St." is still considerably more used than "Saint". This isn't one of those cases where it's jarring for a British reader, I would personally fully expect to see "St." rather than "Saint". Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 14:06, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
A kitten for you!
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Thanks for being such an awesome contributor!