Talk:Epstein didn't kill himself

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This article was nominated for merging with Death of Jeffrey Epstein on 21 November 2019. The result of the discussion (permanent link) was no consensus.

A fact from Epstein didn't kill himself appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 10 January 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that people have randomly interjected the phrase "Epstein didn't kill himself" as a non sequitur at the end of statements?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/January. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Epstein didn't kill himself.

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Death of Jeffrey Epstein was copied or moved into Epstein didn't kill himself with this edit on 04:43, 21 November 2019. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Requested move 2 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) Sceptre (talk) 20:18, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Epstein didn't kill himself → Conspiracy theories about Jeffrey Epstein's death – The current title of this article falls short of the requirements for non-neutral titles stipulated by policy, while also not being sufficiently descriptive for those unfamiliar to identify the topic and scope of the article at a glance.

While "Epstein didn't kill himself" is doubtless the common name of the subject of the article, it also falls under both circumstances under which Wikipedia articles should ideally avoid non-neutral common names detailed at WP:POVNAME. It is unlikely to be remembered or repeated in the future, and a more encyclopedic alternative exists as an option, as other articles about similar conspiracies exist with more neutral titles. Conspiracy theories about Adolf Hitler's death exists as a precedent, and 9/11 conspiracy theories is not titled "Bush did 9/11", for instance.

As such, I believe the article should be moved to another title which both more clearly identifies the topic of the article and complies with NPOV. silviaASH (inquire within) 17:32, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. The current title is misleading. It is not framed in a manner that makes clear it is not a factual statement. That must be fixed per FRINGE. We do not advocate fringe beliefs or state them without the appropriate RS commentary and framing that they are BS. This also applies to article titles, as many times the first and only thing a reader sees is the title, especially in a Google search. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Keep the current title or move to "Epstein didn't kill himself (meme)Epstein didn't kill himself (meme)": The article is written as being about the meme/statement/declaration/catch-phrase, not about the theories, and it is referenced that way in other articles. For example, the opening sentence of this article puts the phrase in quote marks and flatly says it is a meme. The conspiracy theories are covered in the Death of Jeffrey Epstein article already, which refers to this article only when discussing the meme – not as a place to get more information about the theories. See also "I can't breathe" as another article named after a statement that expresses a factual assertion. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Adding "meme" would be an improvement, as the title would no longer be a statement of fact. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:06, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose any attempt to move to Epstein didn't kill himself (meme) as redundant - we add brackets to titles only when doing so is necessary to disambiguate from other subjects with the same title. No opinion on whether to move to "Conspiracy theories about Jeffrey Epstein's death". * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:07, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many people who have participated in distributing this meme are not especially focused on the conspiracy theories or the truth of the matter – they are just basically having some fun and trolling. As the article mentions, it's often a non sequitur or parting interjection that is just "used by individuals of all sides of the political spectrum without agreement on the specific details" – "sometimes more as a pop culture catchphrase than an actual belief". The article is not about theories of what actually did or did not happen to cause Epstein's death. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:26, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: this article is about the meme, not the "conspiracy theories" which are covered in the Death article. I support merging this article to the Death article.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:35, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Jack Upland, neither article is very large, so merging is a good solution. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:05, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support a move or merge, Oppose Conspiracy theories about Jeffrey Epstein's death. I agree the current title can be read as less than neutral, but I also feel that "Conspiracy theories" may also be POV depending on who you ask, and that it is more of a meme than a conspiracy theory (although I do suppose it could be both, the question then becomes which is prevalent, all of these issues could be solved with a merge, however.) ASUKITE 17:59, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, as the nominator seems to have misunderstood the article's topic (it's not about conspiracy theories but about a meme that runs literally "Epstein didn't kill himself", which others have also pointed out). Also, we do have a precedent: Hitler was right. — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:04, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Epstein Files Phase 1 Has Released

Four documents were released by the Department of Justice today: Epstein Files:First Phase. These four documents can be found now on the Commons: Category:Epstein Files Phase 1. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 00:11, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]